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Subwoofers
Phoenix Gold Cyclone - most unique subwoofer - dissection pics
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<blockquote data-quote="geolemon" data-source="post: 316879" data-attributes="member: 547749"><p>Great question...</p><p></p><p>Every loudspeaker has drawbacks, compromises, depending on it's intended use, so I wouldn't worry so much about that, as a potential answer to the question of "why don't we see more of these"</p><p></p><p>... midranges have drawbacks in the scope of using them for low bass production, and subwoofers have drawbacks that make them inherently poor tweeters. //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/biggrin.gif.d71a5d36fcbab170f2364c9f2e3946cb.gif.</p><p></p><p>There's a much simpler answer... or rather, a bunch of reasons.</p><p></p><p>Tom Danley of ServoDrive literally owns all the patents to the technology.</p><p></p><p>As such, he is literally the only one who can manufacture loudspeakers using servo motors, and he obviously could license the technology as well... but ALL efforts to build a servo-motor loudspeaker literally must go through Tom Danley. He has full and legally binding "yea" or "nay" power, and have no doubt that "yea" comes with a very large technology licensing fee.</p><p></p><p>Then, there's the cost of the drivers themselves, and the marketing aspect of it.</p><p></p><p>These motors themselves typically cost more than an entire large low-frequency driver, so when you have to budget in the cost of the motor, and the cost of the licensing fee, before you even get to the fabrication and manufacture of all the other necessary costs, it's easy to see you aren't talking about an inexpensive driver...</p><p></p><p>Which makes it all the more difficult to market - after all, you would expect your audience to be those audiophiles and pro-sound professionals who can understand and realize the potential of this new loudspeaker...</p><p></p><p>Unfortunately, these are also typically people who are already experts in traditional loudspeaker technology, who may rather select something that's already familiar to them, whose limits and handling they can predict and understand.</p><p></p><p>Anyone remember when the obviously superior technology of fuel injection came around? More power, less maintenance, better reliability, better emissions... it was a winner on all fronts. But a great many mechanics who were profiting on maintenance of carburators, and who invested a large amount of education on understanding the ins and outs and how to optimize performance with carburators largely rejected the technology. You'll still see some die-hard musclecar mechanics out there who will argue that the less-expensive carburation is a better choice.</p><p></p><p>Much like carburation, as mentioned above, the costs of a traditional loudspeaker are much less expensive, requiring less expensive parts, and less custom parts tooling. There are inexpensive pre-fab stamped and cast baskets, magnets, cones, surrounds, spiders available for the traditional loudspeaker industry - this industry doesn't even exist, for servo technology.</p><p></p><p>So while I think the biggest thing holding the technology back is that one man, Tom Danley owns all the patents - a legal monopoly, if you will - I think there are many non-peformance-related issues preventing any mainstream explosion of servo technology for bass drivers. //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/wink.gif.608e3ea05f1a9f98611af0861652f8fb.gif</p><p></p><p>The end result is that it performs exactly like a traditional subwoofer, in that it causes sound pressure fluctuations....Therefore, it can be used in any type of enclosure application that a traditional subwoofer can be used in...</p><p></p><p>Subject to the same constraints that make a traditional subwoofer a "better fit" in a sealed or ported application (or 4th vs. 6th order bandpass, or aperiodic, etc.). //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/wink.gif.608e3ea05f1a9f98611af0861652f8fb.gif</p><p></p><p>This particular sub leans a bit to the "sealed enclosure" side.</p><p></p><p>Tom Danley's ServoDrive products (such as the ContraBass and the BassTech7) seem to lean more to the ported side, they use passive radiators in their cabinets.</p><p></p><p>Sure... most of that is purely "install".But it is cleaner sounding than a typical subwoofer, largely due to that "infinitely flat" BL curve, which is inherent in servo motors.</p><p></p><p>That reduces distortion, meaning the subwoofer plays the primary tones it is being fed more clearly, with less higher-frequency harmonics coming off the thing... common with traditional subs, particularly those with parabolic BL curves.</p><p></p><p>Play a 20Hz tone on your subwoofer. You aren't supposed to hear that... what you do hear is largely harmonics, that are definitely <em>not</em> 20 Hz.</p><p></p><p>These harmonics are distortion, and they can "give away" the location of the subwoofer.. not because the 55Hz real note being played sounds like it's coming from behind you, but because the 110Hz and 220Hz harmonics (and other distortions) are coming from behind you. //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/wink.gif.608e3ea05f1a9f98611af0861652f8fb.gif</p><p></p><p>All they are saying here is what all audiophiles say about any SQ oriented subwoofer system in a car...</p><p></p><p>You want the bass to sound like it's coming from up front, you need good midbass drivers up front to reach as low as possible, with good output levels, so that you can turn the subwoofer (whatever subwoofer that is) crossover in the back down as low as you can...</p><p></p><p>Because the human ear is less capable of locating the source of sound, the lower in frequency it gets.</p><p></p><p>I've never used the Cyclone with any particular considerations made to it... including crossover settings... I've usually played with it (in my car, and other's who've borrowed or demoed it) with the crossover set to a pretty typical 75Hz-80Hz, 12dB/octave. //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/wink.gif.608e3ea05f1a9f98611af0861652f8fb.gif</p><p></p><p>For sure, it's limited, in the upper octaves, in that this particular driver can't do midrange... but that's hardly a limitation given it's intended use, as a <strong>sub</strong>woofer.</p><p></p><p>One "limitation" (that's also a benefit), is it's ultra-low Fs of 10Hz.</p><p></p><p>Downside, or benefit? //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/wink.gif.608e3ea05f1a9f98611af0861652f8fb.gif</p><p></p><p>It would perform in a ported box, but with that Fs of 10Hz, it would require a pretty low tune, possibly prohibitively long port lengths.. (but there's always PR's! //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/wink.gif.608e3ea05f1a9f98611af0861652f8fb.gif).Like other subwoofers, this one is simply better suited to sealed enclosures, by design, not by any fundamental limitation.</p><p></p><p>It's a limitation thermally, you simply don't need any more power, and the little motor apparently can't take more than 300 RMS. I've had 400 on mine for short periods of time, no issues...But you definitely KNOW when you've reached your excursion limits, it starts buzzing as it touches down on those foam pads.</p><p></p><p>I wish all subwoofers were so clear in shouting "that's all I got, dummy!" //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/biggrin.gif.d71a5d36fcbab170f2364c9f2e3946cb.gif</p><p></p><p>ServoDrive uses the PacSci motors that I have on my table there... they handle a bit more power...</p><p></p><p>But again, it's all relative.</p><p></p><p>If subwoofers traditionally were 50% efficient, and we've all grown up thinking that 50 watts of power was a monsterous amount resulting in tremendous bass, then we'd be shocked we'd "need" 300 watts to drive this thing.</p><p></p><p>Put what you know about power and how it relates to output out of your mind completely. //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/wink.gif.608e3ea05f1a9f98611af0861652f8fb.gif</p><p></p><p>300 watts is tremendous, in the scope of a subwoofer that has something on the order of 10% efficiency... compared to traditional subwoofers that average at about 1% efficiency. In effect, this means that this sub, with 300 watts, would potentially yield the output of a traditional sub on 3000 watts (all other factors being equal). //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/crazy.gif.c13912c32de98515d3142759a824dae7.gif</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="geolemon, post: 316879, member: 547749"] Great question... Every loudspeaker has drawbacks, compromises, depending on it's intended use, so I wouldn't worry so much about that, as a potential answer to the question of "why don't we see more of these" ... midranges have drawbacks in the scope of using them for low bass production, and subwoofers have drawbacks that make them inherently poor tweeters. [IMG]//content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/biggrin.gif.d71a5d36fcbab170f2364c9f2e3946cb.gif[/IMG]. There's a much simpler answer... or rather, a bunch of reasons. Tom Danley of ServoDrive literally owns all the patents to the technology. As such, he is literally the only one who can manufacture loudspeakers using servo motors, and he obviously could license the technology as well... but ALL efforts to build a servo-motor loudspeaker literally must go through Tom Danley. He has full and legally binding "yea" or "nay" power, and have no doubt that "yea" comes with a very large technology licensing fee. Then, there's the cost of the drivers themselves, and the marketing aspect of it. These motors themselves typically cost more than an entire large low-frequency driver, so when you have to budget in the cost of the motor, and the cost of the licensing fee, before you even get to the fabrication and manufacture of all the other necessary costs, it's easy to see you aren't talking about an inexpensive driver... Which makes it all the more difficult to market - after all, you would expect your audience to be those audiophiles and pro-sound professionals who can understand and realize the potential of this new loudspeaker... Unfortunately, these are also typically people who are already experts in traditional loudspeaker technology, who may rather select something that's already familiar to them, whose limits and handling they can predict and understand. Anyone remember when the obviously superior technology of fuel injection came around? More power, less maintenance, better reliability, better emissions... it was a winner on all fronts. But a great many mechanics who were profiting on maintenance of carburators, and who invested a large amount of education on understanding the ins and outs and how to optimize performance with carburators largely rejected the technology. You'll still see some die-hard musclecar mechanics out there who will argue that the less-expensive carburation is a better choice. Much like carburation, as mentioned above, the costs of a traditional loudspeaker are much less expensive, requiring less expensive parts, and less custom parts tooling. There are inexpensive pre-fab stamped and cast baskets, magnets, cones, surrounds, spiders available for the traditional loudspeaker industry - this industry doesn't even exist, for servo technology. So while I think the biggest thing holding the technology back is that one man, Tom Danley owns all the patents - a legal monopoly, if you will - I think there are many non-peformance-related issues preventing any mainstream explosion of servo technology for bass drivers. [IMG]//content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/wink.gif.608e3ea05f1a9f98611af0861652f8fb.gif[/IMG] The end result is that it performs exactly like a traditional subwoofer, in that it causes sound pressure fluctuations....Therefore, it can be used in any type of enclosure application that a traditional subwoofer can be used in... Subject to the same constraints that make a traditional subwoofer a "better fit" in a sealed or ported application (or 4th vs. 6th order bandpass, or aperiodic, etc.). [IMG]//content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/wink.gif.608e3ea05f1a9f98611af0861652f8fb.gif[/IMG] This particular sub leans a bit to the "sealed enclosure" side. Tom Danley's ServoDrive products (such as the ContraBass and the BassTech7) seem to lean more to the ported side, they use passive radiators in their cabinets. Sure... most of that is purely "install".But it is cleaner sounding than a typical subwoofer, largely due to that "infinitely flat" BL curve, which is inherent in servo motors. That reduces distortion, meaning the subwoofer plays the primary tones it is being fed more clearly, with less higher-frequency harmonics coming off the thing... common with traditional subs, particularly those with parabolic BL curves. Play a 20Hz tone on your subwoofer. You aren't supposed to hear that... what you do hear is largely harmonics, that are definitely [I]not[/I] 20 Hz. These harmonics are distortion, and they can "give away" the location of the subwoofer.. not because the 55Hz real note being played sounds like it's coming from behind you, but because the 110Hz and 220Hz harmonics (and other distortions) are coming from behind you. [IMG]//content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/wink.gif.608e3ea05f1a9f98611af0861652f8fb.gif[/IMG] All they are saying here is what all audiophiles say about any SQ oriented subwoofer system in a car... You want the bass to sound like it's coming from up front, you need good midbass drivers up front to reach as low as possible, with good output levels, so that you can turn the subwoofer (whatever subwoofer that is) crossover in the back down as low as you can... Because the human ear is less capable of locating the source of sound, the lower in frequency it gets. I've never used the Cyclone with any particular considerations made to it... including crossover settings... I've usually played with it (in my car, and other's who've borrowed or demoed it) with the crossover set to a pretty typical 75Hz-80Hz, 12dB/octave. [IMG]//content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/wink.gif.608e3ea05f1a9f98611af0861652f8fb.gif[/IMG] For sure, it's limited, in the upper octaves, in that this particular driver can't do midrange... but that's hardly a limitation given it's intended use, as a [B]sub[/B]woofer. One "limitation" (that's also a benefit), is it's ultra-low Fs of 10Hz. Downside, or benefit? [IMG]//content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/wink.gif.608e3ea05f1a9f98611af0861652f8fb.gif[/IMG] It would perform in a ported box, but with that Fs of 10Hz, it would require a pretty low tune, possibly prohibitively long port lengths.. (but there's always PR's! [IMG]//content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/wink.gif.608e3ea05f1a9f98611af0861652f8fb.gif[/IMG]).Like other subwoofers, this one is simply better suited to sealed enclosures, by design, not by any fundamental limitation. It's a limitation thermally, you simply don't need any more power, and the little motor apparently can't take more than 300 RMS. I've had 400 on mine for short periods of time, no issues...But you definitely KNOW when you've reached your excursion limits, it starts buzzing as it touches down on those foam pads. I wish all subwoofers were so clear in shouting "that's all I got, dummy!" [IMG]//content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/biggrin.gif.d71a5d36fcbab170f2364c9f2e3946cb.gif[/IMG] ServoDrive uses the PacSci motors that I have on my table there... they handle a bit more power... But again, it's all relative. If subwoofers traditionally were 50% efficient, and we've all grown up thinking that 50 watts of power was a monsterous amount resulting in tremendous bass, then we'd be shocked we'd "need" 300 watts to drive this thing. Put what you know about power and how it relates to output out of your mind completely. [IMG]//content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/wink.gif.608e3ea05f1a9f98611af0861652f8fb.gif[/IMG] 300 watts is tremendous, in the scope of a subwoofer that has something on the order of 10% efficiency... compared to traditional subwoofers that average at about 1% efficiency. In effect, this means that this sub, with 300 watts, would potentially yield the output of a traditional sub on 3000 watts (all other factors being equal). [IMG]//content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/crazy.gif.c13912c32de98515d3142759a824dae7.gif[/IMG] [/QUOTE]
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Phoenix Gold Cyclone - most unique subwoofer - dissection pics
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