An alternative to cover inner door holes worth a try?

[Alrojoca 10+ year member]

Trumpet, I hope you can see this post again. I was busy the last few days doing the work.

I checked the rest of the link and seeing #7 putting MLV on the doors, I did it a bit differently and I wanted to ask you what you thought.

I used no glue or velcro to my doors with CCF and MLV . What I did was I cut the MLV and attach to the door card. The CCF I put it on the inner door side facing the MLV and card. I attached the CCF to the inner door with some clips and caps already on the door and also the bracket and items that are screwed on the door and that holds the ccf, I did not cover the section where the door car clips are on like I did with the MLV but I managed to cover with CCF most of the area the MLV touches, also I read Don mentioning on some other forum that the air between the inner door and outer door even with no CCF will work as a decoupler, I figured just a few inches it is no big deal.

Here are some pics of how I did it. Basically the CCF is on the door, and the MLV on the card before installing it. When the card is removed the MLV comes out with the card, tricky to put the card on but it worked fine.

Is this a good way to do it? or should the MLV should always be velcroed to the inner door?

Thanks

 

[trumpet 5,000+ posts]

Is this a good way to do it? or should the MLV should always be velcroed to the inner door?

Air gaps will let sound through. Without seeing the vehicle and the clearances it's hard to say how well the door is sealed. This is why Don recommends cementing the CCF to the MLV, and then hanging the stuff on the metal. If it works for you and the vinyl doesn't sag then it's mission accomplished.

 

[Alrojoca 10+ year member]

Air gaps will let sound through. Without seeing the vehicle and the clearances it's hard to say how well the door is sealed. This is why Don recommends cementing the CCF to the MLV, and then hanging the stuff on the metal. If it works for you and the vinyl doesn't sag then it's mission accomplished.

Thanks bro No sag in my opinion since

The vinyl is held by all the door clips while on the card and snapped on the door, also the metal bracket that holds the arm rest holds the vinyl in the mid section, the only air gaps will be around the pins since the foam did not wrap all the pins like the vinyl did. Bottom line the vinyl sealed the door, the foam covered most of the inner door except for 1/2" or so from the pins to the foam.

Maybe it was possible to glue the foam to the vinyl once the vinyl was on the card, then install it on the door but it could be very hard to put the card back on.One thing I noticed was I will need 3/4 " mdf speaker rings since I used 1/2 " that is why I'm having some sound leak that I had before too.

One thing I did bro, was put left over CCF in the door card between any plastic that had a gap, also putting tape on on some switch covers that snap on eliminated the noise when tapping on them.

One question, putting CLD on the plastic card eliminates rattles or just vibration? I figured plastic will not rattle by putting CCF in between the gaps of parts that seat on top of each other on the door card, however it will vibrate but vibration is okay as long as there are no rattles or noise Right?

 

[trumpet 5,000+ posts]

One question, putting CLD on the plastic card eliminates rattles or just vibration? I figured plastic will not rattle by putting CCF in between the gaps of parts that seat on top of each other on the door card, however it will vibrate but vibration is okay as long as there are no rattles or noise Right?

CLD is for vibration/resonance of the panel, not for rattles. Often a plastic panel without good reinforcement on the back side is going to resonate with some bass frequencies. If you hear that happening you may need to put CLD on it. One song in particular that always points out this problem is Tool - H. The opening guitar part is really going to get the door panel excited if the speaker is capable of handling it cleanly.

 

[Alrojoca 10+ year member]

I know it can be confusing but rattles are caused by vibration, I may be wrong but CLD is used to reduce vibrations and it will help with resonance although there are other materials that will reduce resonance way better than a CLD, most are not meant to be used inside the doors due to their life, heat, moisture and other elements will degrade them, therefore CLD is the choice to help on that.

My door cards have some Thinsulate from the factory (about 60%) this is my situation: card, thinsulate, MLV, CCF, inner door metal, basically), but maybe I can add some CLD on the plastic to reduce the vibration although I have no rattles that I can hear, there is some good vibration, thanks.

I guess my only question about MLV and doors would be. What is considered a big gap between the CCF and the MLV? more than 1 inch, 2 inches, more? I know the SDS site recommends gluing a bit on the top and bottom but in the middle there will be some minor gaps or sags. My rear doors are pretty smooth with the holes sealed as pictured, but I am sure there will be gaps between the MLV and CCF just very similar to the SDS velcro window system. Sorry I do no have a picture showing the whole door I could see gaps between the inner metal door and the CCF and in a few areas some minor gaps in between the CCF and MLV. Most of the CLD on my rear doors is on the outer door and behind the inner door facing the outer metal, that is why the pic is not showing much dynamat on the inner door facing the cabin.

Any help and opinion is welcomed! I can always try to go back and figure out a way to put the MLV on the door by velcro it the SDS way on top of the CCF and glue some parts, or just the way I have it, CCF on the door MLV on the card and install the card with the MLV.

 

[Alrojoca 10+ year member]

Update! Unlike some inner doors where the inside edges are flat and smooth. When I installed the sheet metal and covered the hole, a pocket was created with the sheet metal on the bottom of the opening.

I ran some water test spraying water on the outer window and Water leaks as it goes in the pocket created on the bottom and comes out inside the cabin on the bottom of the door.

I needed to install the sheet metal on the inside part of the opening covering the hole to prevent this problem, now the water will touch the sheet metal but will not find any surface or pocket to go through it will simply stay in between the outer and inner door just the way it should drain.

I also put a rain guard on my magnets since they were getting wet even before I decided to cover the inner door hole.

I'm glad I found this issue and it will be fixed without a plastic bag type material moisture barrier.

 

[keep_hope_alive Premium Member]

good thread going here.

any gap, even 1/8" thick, is something to be addressed. I understand the "pocket" you were referring to. when i seal up a door, i use a material that suits the need. with sheet metal, it is usually thin enough to bend to fit the contour of the door so you do get a perfect seal, put some CLD and CCF on the inside and you have the ability to seal tight to the metal - eliminating any pocket.

all doors get wet inside. protecting the speaker is important. usually, taking some CCF weatherstripping around the top half of the speaker/door opening will route water around - it travels on the inner surfaces.

to be effective blocking sound, MLV needs to NOT TOUCH the vehicle metal surfaces. touching means sound energy can transmit through the barrier. the reason we put CCF on it is to decouple the MLV from the metal surface. when MLV is rated as a noise barrier, it is free-hanging. note that sound travels more easily through surfaces than air gaps. a slight gap will let in a lot of noise - try it with your window. when parked, just crack it a bit and you can hear the difference.

with sound inside a door, pvc encased fiberglass (or ultratouch) is what i've found to be most beneficial and what i will do to all doors in the future.

I also agree that H. is well suited to test resonance in metal, and one of the reasons you see me going through so much work and effort - getting Tool to play perfectly is always my #1 goal.

 

[Alrojoca 10+ year member]

good thread going here.
any gap, even 1/8" thick, is something to be addressed. I understand the "pocket" you were referring to. when i seal up a door, i use a material that suits the need. with sheet metal, it is usually thin enough to bend to fit the contour of the door so you do get a perfect seal, put some CLD and CCF on the inside and you have the ability to seal tight to the metal - eliminating any pocket.

all doors get wet inside. protecting the speaker is important. usually, taking some CCF weatherstripping around the top half of the speaker/door opening will route water around - it travels on the inner surfaces.

to be effective blocking sound, MLV needs to NOT TOUCH the vehicle metal surfaces. touching means sound energy can transmit through the barrier. the reason we put CCF on it is to decouple the MLV from the metal surface. when MLV is rated as a noise barrier, it is free-hanging. note that sound travels more easily through surfaces than air gaps. a slight gap will let in a lot of noise - try it with your window. when parked, just crack it a bit and you can hear the difference.

with sound inside a door, pvc encased fiberglass (or ultratouch) is what i've found to be most beneficial and what i will do to all doors in the future.

I also agree that H. is well suited to test resonance in metal, and one of the reasons you see me going through so much work and effort - getting Tool to play perfectly is always my #1 goal.

Great! Thanks! it is always great to have your advice!

I used 28 gauge galvanized sheet metal, not super hard but not one that can bend that much either, those openings on my rear doors have lip that is like 3/16" but it is on the inside making it hard to seal or a avoid not only a pocket, but a hole channel diagonally that will carry all the water right to the bottom of the opening. I also have some wiring right there at the bottom of the opening coming from the inside to the outer part of the inner door that simply did not help and caused that huge pocket. What I had to do was cut the sheet metal in half and cut a half circle on the top of bottom half piece of sheet metal to be able pull it out or move it to put the screws on after I screwed the top part of the sheet metal. I agree with you about using closed cell foam tape, I do not feel too comfortable using rope caulk not only due to the mess but also either I have to use a lot of it or it did not give me a good seal since that is what I had when I had the leak, besides the fact that I also used caulk rope between the door and the MDF speaker ring and there was another pocket that was causing leak. I am sure I will make it better and these issues will be fixed, it is just one of those unique cases where the standard method will not work to seal that opening or we need to improvise to avoid water coming inside the door card. I may post some pics of the sheet metal on the door for everybody to see.

Regarding the MLV on my doors

My only concern was the fact that I did not use any velcro, my inner door is pretty smooth and it has no contours deeper than 1/4" I can add extra CCF on the bottom where the door card clips connect to the inner door, no problem.

My only issue is that I attached the CCF to existing plugs and brackets and when I put the door card, the card has the MLV and not the inner door, I figured since the door does not have deep areas this would work rather than having to improvise going back and forth to leave the MlV on the inner door and glue some areas to keep it together and mess with the velcro just to be able to attach the door card (I figured just mounting the card would be a nightmare to finally get it aligned and good) With my method I just simply put the MLV on the card, move a few cables, plug connectors, make sure all pins/clips are clear and wham, I get the card on easy. I am sure there will be gaps, a few big ones between the door card the MLV but between the MLV and the CCF doing it the way I did it I, figured there was not going to be that much of a difference compared to velcro and glue like most installers do. I just needed some confirmation from a pro like you or trumpet that this method will not be a total waste of money and time, and I have not seen Don from SDS post here on this forum.

One thing I did on the card was put CCF in between plastic panels over lapping each other and tape on some switch covers that kind of make noise as I tap on them. Pic about this enclosed.

Thanks for the tips and advice and I hope this helps others too.

 

[Alrojoca 10+ year member]

Pics.

Sheet metal behind the inner door installed. On the bottom where that wiring is located was where the pocket was made when I put the sheet metal over the opening before I had to re do this rear door work to fix the leak issue.

CCF tape used to put on the sheet metal to prevent most but not all air leaks, the I will use more of the tape over it and CLD to seal the 2 sections of sheet metal.

My whole door

 

[keep_hope_alive Premium Member]

looks good. the real test is how much quieter unwanted noise is. did you get much absorption inside the door?

 

[Alrojoca 10+ year member]

Oops! we crossed posting at the same time! Thanks

looks good. the real test is how much quieter unwanted noise is. did you get much absorption inside the door?

Since I do not seat in the back, the real test will be when I carry some family members, I did not want to put so much effort for the rears, really I got into this just for the leak I had and I wanted a tighter solid feel when closing the doors, after the initial instalation before I took it apart again, the doors did not really feel as solid as my fronts even having near 100% coverage with Dynamat on the outer layer and some on the inside inner door. Now that I got all these extra material I will make effort to seal as many gaps as I find. I am going to finish one door and drive and test without doing the other door just to see if I notice increased volume levels, less noise or better bass and I will know the extra work helped.

Let me know what you think of this! or if you used it, it may be as effective as Ensolite with foil backing.

I got some of this at Lowe's today, it comes to $1.30/sf. Interesting I went to get more foil tape today to cover some sloppy CLD and found it. Not sure if it is CCF covered with foil or aluminum type, but it is good to have something that will glue to metal being peel and stick. I am going to cover the areas on the bottom around the clips and other parts where the MLV touches the inner door. When I came home I googled Frost King Duct insulation and Wham! this video popped up, and although we saw no material on the door or the process his claims and video shows a difference being inside the car. Any Thoughts, Comments or Ideas yet?

 

[keep_hope_alive Premium Member]

cool video.

i am going to be using this product in my car soon (ordered with free shipping)

UltraTouch 48 in. x 6 ft. Radiant Barrier-30000-11406 at The Home Depot

this will be superior to a foil/foam combination since ultratouch insulation is an excellent acoustical absorber.

i also found their MLV pretty affordable (with free shipping)

http://www.homedepot.com/p/dB-3-4-ft-x-8-ft-Acoustical-Barrier-DB348X96BX/100663624#.Uidv93-4g3U

 

[Alrojoca 10+ year member]

Good deal on the Ultra touch, the reason I liked the Frost King Duct insulator with foam is because it is a peel and stick, I will use some on parts of the inner door to fill up some contours or gaps on the inner door and make the CCF over it more effective, the door card and vertical areas like the rear wall, it seems easy to remove it and will not destroy itself when removed.

Where will it be the best applications for the Ultratouch? To me it sounds like it would be great stuff to put on the plastic door card, maybe near the firewall the floors and trunk, on vertical areas glue will be needed, not sure about the inner door. Use Velcro, 3m glue or Tape for a Truck rear wall?

The home depot MLV is also a good deal, I read on the other forum that it was not quite 1lb/sqf (more like 0.67lb/sf ) but combined with the Ultratouch it will be a good and maybe better lighter barrier.

The HD MLV is reinforced with some other thread material, it may help to not tear as easy and it may not be as flexible as the regular MLV. I was lucky to find a local carpet place that has 6x4' and 8x4' left over 1/8 1lb/sf rolls of good non smelly/non reinforced MLV for $1.40 s/f.

This is my door card, note that the plastic insert was removed already, it has some insulate type material and a foam strip surrounding the edge. I noticed on the bottom of the the card, they left 2 one 1" gaps, I am 100% sure this is for water to drain if needed. This is another reason I did not go all the way down with CCF on the inner door. I am adding an extra 2" on CCF where the clips go. Should I leave those 2 gaps on the bottom alone or seal them with CCF tape?

 

[Alrojoca 10+ year member]

Frost king product needs adhesive to stay on and also on the foil since it tends to peel off, maybe it's the heat.

Any advice on adhesives, loctite 300 or 3M 77? One that when the 2 parts glued need to be separated will not get destroyed in the process and it's not hard to remove. The insulation CCF tapes sold at HD or lowes need glue to stay on. Also tapes, foil or good duct tape that can be removed and look good, I used Nashua and it looks sloppy or leaves dirty residue, what kind of general purpose tape can be used in doors to have a clean similar to OEM look and finish.

 

[Alrojoca 10+ year member]

Due to my leak I went ahead and did this just in case, I had some 4 inch holes already covered with just CLD and I could not use those to reach the biggest and furthest from the speaker hole making very hard to reach and make it easier to cover and seal the hole.

If in some cases if it applies, the best way is to start covering the holes that are the furthest from the speaker hole and use the other holes to access the ones finished to feel the pockets on the covered holes and put caulk rope to fill them up and get a smooth and flat even area around those pockets, it will keep water out, also use thin gauge sheet metal 35-40 gauge, that way it can be pushed and bent inside to reduce the chances of getting water in those pockets. With many cars when water drains it may not touch the inner wall but in some cars that is the first area it it hits when it rains.