Help with JBL speaker repair - refoam gone wrong?

[Doxquzme Premium Member]

Electronic filters divide the frequency before the output and are not affected by the impedance of the speaker. ( this can only be tested at the source) Passive, inline crossovers take a full range signal from the amplifier and use physical capacitors or coils and their respective values are determined, precisely by the impedance of the speakers at the end of those speaker leads. If you use 4 ohm speakers on an inline passive (mechanical) crossover that is designed for 2 ohm speakers, you will end up with either frequencies that are too low going to and damaging the tweeter or a big hole in the frequencies played due to the midbass crossing over lower than it should and the tweeter crossing over to high. If I was sure that they are crossed electronically, any set, 2 or 4 ohm would suffice and only the volume would be impacted.

"We already know that the blogpost guy used the coaxial Alpines without issue, and the youtube guy recommends the Alpine S-S69C which appear also be rated at 4 ohm."

Again, what we don't know, ultimately, is if the are passive or electronic. Any speaker with the same configuration will act the same, not unique to Alpine. the impedance is a factor now and needs to be observed since we are erroring on the side of caution and assuming that the leads are filtered with passive filters. Since we are not going to test further to determine the type of filtering, we need to assume the wires use passive filters.

Here is something to chew on while I look for speakers that will work.

What Happens If I Use A Different Impedance Speaker On A Crossover? - Sound Certified

Using a different impedance speaker on a crossover can affect sound quality. Learn about the importance of speaker Ohms and crossover frequency in this guide.

soundcertified.com

 

[Doxquzme Premium Member]

So, couple of things to cover. I spoke to the "blogspot guy", Christopher at PB Audio Installation, and he clarified a couple of things that after watching his videos again, point out that, (and as he stated to me), the impedance was not a factor for their install because they were replacing the factory amplifier.

He, as did I, recommended only using 2 ohm speakers for the same reason as I. One, the filters may be inline passives (and he has no recollection of which they are but assumes, as I do, that the are passive, inline) and two, because they are 4 ohm, they will be substantially quieter so best to use 2 ohm replacements. This is due to a couple of factors. The impedance first and efficiency 2nd. OEM speakers are usually very efficient, much more so than aftermarket replacements. This because aftermarket speakers can handle a lot more power than the OEM speakers. So, we could potentially be talking about half as loud using 4 ohm speakers, that's substantial when you're not talking about a lot of power to begin with.

As for installing tweeters on the package tray next to the 6x9's, that is a very simple installation, much easier than refoaming the JBLs.

adding surface mount tweeters to the rear package tray - Google Search

if you don't have a Dremel, you can cut those ribs with a razor blade and bend them back and forth to remove them. If, in the case of the NVX or any other comps where there isn't a screw on for the rear as there is for the tweeters in this video, you only have to cut the hole and hot glue the tweeter into place, very easy.

Here's what I've found for reasonable components:

Adaptors for the front:

Adapters to mount the tweeters should you choose components:

Amazon product ASIN B01N2J8892
For the front and ther rear:

VSP69KIT2F 900W Peak (300W RMS) 6x9" 2-Ohm V-Series 2-Way Component Speakers with 25mm Silk Dome Tweeters

Product Details: 6" x 9" V Series 2-way Component System Car Speakers Power Handling: Peak: 900 watts per set / 450 watts each side RMS: 300 watts per set / 150 watts each side Polypropylene cone material Nitrile Butadiene Rubber NBR speaker surround 1" Silk Dome Tweeters CEA-2031 compliant: Yes...

nvx.com

You will use the adapters for the fronts, in the dash and mount the tweeters in the package tray as shown in the video. You will not need to use the supplied crossovers as we've established that the leads are already filtered.

Coaxial option (requires that you splice into or seperate the tweeter wires already on the speaker and feed the tweeter leads from the car to their respective inputs on the back of the coaxials. This also means that you will ignore the dash mounted speakers an only use it's speaker wire (lead) fro the tweeter on the coaxial driver.

Crutchfield has these the front and the rears, all you have to do is remove the leads going to the tweeter, bypass the cap and run the Camry tweeter leads to these wires, the bass wires to the bass driver.

PowerBass OE692-TY 6" x 9" 2-way Toyota Speakers | eBay

PowerBass also makes things easier by equipping these speakers with factory-compatible wiring harnesses. 6"x9" injection-molded polypropylene woofer cone. Say goodbye to flimsy factory woofers and whizzer cones.

www.ebay.com

You can tape off the leads and ignore the cap and wire, they will no longer be needed and can just sit there.

 

[BenH]

I appreciate the help, but you seem to be continually making this more confusing in areas where it doesn't need to be.
For starters, all I have ever asked is about replacing the rear speakers. While I might have mentioned that my front door mid-ranges might need to be replaced as well, they were not part of anything I have been asking since day 1.

Bringing all these other parts into play when we are just trying to answer the main question I posed just causes us to go off track and loose the main point. For starters, you seem to be conflating multiple sources I have sent you. The "blog" guy and the PB guy are not the same person, and I wouldn't expect the PB youtube guy to remember. He states as much in his comments from others that he didn't recall, nor would he since he was basically ripping out the whole system anyway.

I'm 99% certain both from things I recall reading on the Toyota forums and because the blog post (again not the PB video guy, but the blog post I linked 3 or 4 times) specifically uses the Alpine SPE coaxial speakers, that the crossovers are electronic and coming from the amp itself.

My goals are basically these, and I'm not really willing to compromise on any of them:
1) Not lose any functionality from what I have. Meaning I am not willing to lose both channels in the rear and only get one frequency.
2) Not lose any appreciable volume to the system. I would say a 10-15% drop in max volume may be acceptable, but anything beyond that I would not want.
3) Not looking to modify my vehicle. I don't want to drill holes in my rear deck. I don't want to carve out plastic on my top to fit tweeters in. The link you sent for those didn't work, but again, I don't see how it is possible to put another tweeter anywhere else under the rear deck cover without cutting out an area for the grill to come through. I'm not willing to modify the vehicle in this way.
4) Cost. Which basically means I want to replace any component that cannot be repaired only if required.

At this point, I know the rear mids are bad, they need to be replaced. The front door mids may be the next job after that, but I'll address those once these are done. I think the only concern that might exists regarding doing the fronts later is that if I happen to put a 4 ohm in the back, and then *also* in the front that might mean a larger volume drop (I think?).

My question still regarding the Alpine SPE-6090 that the blog post uses is that they are rated at 4 ohm. Because this is a coaxial speaker with 2 components, does that mean each speaker is rated 4 ohm, or because I need to split them up will they each be less resistance?

I really don't fully trust any of these folks because they all recommend 4 ohm speakers, but don't really warn that you are going to have volume issues with them. Any comments which attempt to address that issue appear to go unanswered.

So I am NOT concerned that 4 ohm speakers won't work, because I am confident the crossover is done in the amp based upon other things I read. But I am concerned that 4 ohms speakers will cut down on my volume. I don't blast my stereo, but as I can't really know what the drop will be, I am concerned to risk it.

It looks to me like my options are either:

If I want to go component, and try to reuse my existing tweeter mount:
Amazon product ASIN B0B3F7V1YC
If I want to go coaxial and snip the tweeter wires:
Amazon product ASIN B099FJHCLC
Won't both of these work? If not, why? And barring these do you have another specific suggestion.

thanks

 

[Doxquzme Premium Member]

You ask the questions, I answer them with your limited knowledge in mind.

Those are the options that I listed too, so, who's making this too complicated? Take what you can from all of this and good luck!

 

[BenH]

You ask the questions, I answer them with your limited knowledge in mind.

Those are the options that I listed too, so, who's making this too complicated? Take what you can from all of this and good luck!

Yeah, and I really do appreciate the help - not meaning to sound ungrateful (seriously you're going above and beyond).
Also, it isn't just you - and while everyone who has been active in here is trying to help the process has been similar most places I have asked for help. I explain the siuation and am told things like "don't repair the speakers, oh any speaker will work, oh there are tons of 2 ohm speakers that can do the job, etc." But, as we've seen - when it all comes down to it, are there really? There is nothing that is a direct replacement (short of the $700 a pair OEM replacement) and even you - someone with lots of knowledge and experience comes up with only the same 2 that I was able to Google and find that are 2-ohm!

One of the audio places I went to even said they almost always take these in for repair because its such a PITA to find replacements for them.

Part of the frustration is that although I am not super knowledgeable I did come in here armed a bit with the prior research I did including the video, blog posts, and other things that stuck in my brain from the Toyota forums and I feel we had to re-invent the wheel sort of. I understand you are trying to uncover other issues that may be problematic, and I appreciate it - I'm just starting to get burn out on what I was hoping was going to be a relatively simple answer.

Personally, I'm leaning to the coaxial install so I don't have to worry about the tweeter mounts at all. I think/hope I can reuse my tweeter bracket on the new 6x9 component option, but if not then I need to wire tweeters elsewhere. Which I think might be a problem.

Do you see any particular advantage to doing one over the other?

I'm also 95% sure that the front door speakers are just the same 6x9 mids that are in the rear. One of mine is working fine and I'm hoping that with refoaming I'm going to be able to fix at least 2 of the 4 total original speakers I have. If I can, then I think I can just use the 2 (whether they were the front original, or the rear) for the front. This might not be possible, because although I know they are supposed to be 6x9 mid JBLs, I'm not sure if the bracket structure is the same. I might try to access them later this week and would know.

Anyway - I might be off base for the tweeter install, and I can put up some pictures if it helps - but if I have to attach tweeters somewhere else doesn't that mean both:
a) I have to drill into the metal deck to place them and
b) drill/dremel some opening in my rear deck cover for the sound to come out (i.e. let their grills come through the top)
?

Another option that we can probably do is component 6.5 speakers. I think they make an adapter that will allow me to mount a 6.5 and tweeter right next to each other. However, I don't know what the drawback of that is? Less volume from a smaller mid?

 

[Doxquzme Premium Member]

The 6x9's coaxials are fine and my choice for ease of installation and I would replace them all if that re-coning effort does not pan out. Personally I would skip fixing the originals as they are paper, 26 years old, probably shot altogether, install the replacements 6x9s and be done with it, but live and learn I always say.

I would stick with 2 ohms either way you go, comps or coaxials and would also opt for 6x9s as they will fit and when using the factory locations.

Unfortunately, the NVX does not make a 2 ohm coaxial (only components) and I'm not fan of mixing and matching different manufactures just to save a few dollars. So either the Powerbass 2 ohm coaxials, bypassing the cap on the tweeter and wiring directly to the tweeter leads using the tweeter leads from the camry and using the bass lead wires for the 6x9 midbass drivers.

 

[1aespinoza 10+ year member]

I believe we have our answer:

We sure do. I think the Apline SXE-6926s are your best bet. 92 dB sensitivity means they convert signal to sound really well, 45 watts RMS means it does not take much power to get them going, the tweeter wire is very exposed for easy splicing, and the price that just makes sense.

 

[Jimi77 5,000+ posts]

If you go 4 ohms, you'll probably lose ~5-6db. If you go 2 ohms expect to lose closer to 3db. Usually a model specific forum can answer if those speakers are crossed electronically or passively. I suspect they are passively crossed. Look for a capacitor on that "bridge" that the tweeter was mounted to, that would indicate (but not guarantee) they're crossed passively. Usually OEM systems that are crossed passively send a full range signal to the woofer and just cross the tweeter (just like most aftermarket 2 way coaxials). The woofer will naturally roll off the highs due to the impedance of the voice coil.

A simple test would be find a small book shelf speaker and hook it up to both those outputs and see if you get a full range signal or if the signal is cut off.

 

[BenH]

If you go 4 ohms, you'll probably lose ~5-6db. If you go 2 ohms expect to lose closer to 3db. Usually a model specific forum can answer if those speakers are crossed electronically or passively. I suspect they are passively crossed. Look for a capacitor on that "bridge" that the tweeter was mounted to, that would indicate (but not guarantee) they're crossed passively. Usually OEM systems that are crossed passively send a full range signal to the woofer and just cross the tweeter (just like most aftermarket 2 way coaxials). The woofer will naturally roll off the highs due to the impedance of the voice coil.

A simple test would be find a small book shelf speaker and hook it up to both those outputs and see if you get a full range signal or if the signal is cut off.

This test was already performed a few posts back, we verified that each set of wires is sending out a different signal. There is no capacitor on the tweeter (that I can find). Also, as mentioned I have been told on the Toyota forums that the amp is responsible for the crossover.

Why would I lose 3db if I use a 2ohm setup? That is currently what I have so why would replacing it with the same cause a drop in volume?

 

[Water Bear]

It seems like we need a summary of the discussion so far. Here it is.

1. Passive crossovers only work right with a specific impedance. If that's expected to be 2 ohm, then a 4 ohm replacement would have incorrectly filtered signal = tweeters playing too low, midbass playing too high.
2. Ben can *maybe* mount component tweeters somewhere in his rear deck. Whether that's surface mount or replacing the factory tweeter bridge with a piece of cut 1/4" mdf, it's possible. But not his first choice.
3. If we can find a set of 2 ohm 6x9 coaxials, the job's done. Ben can do some minor wire surgery.

Conclusion: We can all go home if someone can find 2 ohm 6x9 coax's.

Edit: @BenH if this link works, here are 3 2 ohm 6x9 options.

 

[BenH]

It seems like we need a summary of the discussion so far. Here it is.

1. Passive crossovers only work right with a specific impedance. If that's expected to be 2 ohm, then a 4 ohm replacement would have incorrectly filtered signal = tweeters playing too low, midbass playing too high.
2. Ben can *maybe* mount component tweeters somewhere in his rear deck. Whether that's surface mount or replacing the factory tweeter bridge with a piece of cut 1/4" mdf, it's possible. But not his first choice.
3. If we can find a set of 2 ohm 6x9 coaxials, the job's done. Ben can do some minor wire surgery.

Conclusion: We can all go home if someone can find 2 ohm 6x9 coax's.

Edit: @BenH if this link works, here are 3 2 ohm 6x9 options.

Yes, I think we are pretty much in agreement at this point.

In my post 2 up I linked both one set of component and another coaxial set that are each 2-ohm. @Doxquzme also mentioned the same.

If my final repair doesn't work as hoped, I'm leaning towards the coaxial and snipping the wires as discussed instead of the component and trying to reuse my existing tweeter (or worse, have to mount the new ones elsewhere).

I will keep you all apprised of what happens over the next week. In the meantime, if you have an argument why the component would be the better option then the coaxial, I'm open to it.

 

[Jimi77 5,000+ posts]

This test was already performed a few posts back, we verified that each set of wires is sending out a different signal. There is no capacitor on the tweeter (that I can find). Also, as mentioned I have been told on the Toyota forums that the amp is responsible for the crossover.

Why would I lose 3db if I use a 2ohm setup? That is currently what I have so why would replacing it with the same cause a drop in volume?

Sorry didn't read all posts. You'll lose volume because aftermarket speakers aren't as efficient as OEM. Aftermarket speakers are heavier so that can handle more power and the cones tend to be better damped.

Goo luck with project.

 

[Water Bear]

Yes, I think we are pretty much in agreement at this point.

In my post 2 up I linked both one set of component and another coaxial set that are each 2-ohm. @Doxquzme also mentioned the same.

If my final repair doesn't work as hoped, I'm leaning towards the coaxial and snipping the wires as discussed instead of the component and trying to reuse my existing tweeter (or worse, have to mount the new ones elsewhere).

I will keep you all apprised of what happens over the next week. In the meantime, if you have an argument why the component would be the better option then the coaxial, I'm open to it.

Good luck. Splicing the wires is not bad, and personally I kind of enjoy the process. There's something satisfying about the final heat shrink.

Just look for a high sensitivity set of speakers and send it.

 

[BenH]

Hey all. Well I'm sorry to report a rather anti-climactic ending to this ordeal.
I got another set of speaker foams and did another refoam on the rear speaker that was still experiencing some buzzing and the job appears to have been successful. I used my last foam to repair one of the front door mids and it too seems successful.
So, it doesn't appear that I need to replace them at this point (for now).

I do appreciate everyone's help and advice (especially @Doxquzme in bearing with me) and I don't take this is a total loss since I have learned a few things and should I need to replace them down the line I feel armed with the right know how.

Again, thanks all and have a happy holidays!

speakers

5 new items added to shared album

photos.app.goo.gl

 

[1aespinoza 10+ year member]

Well I'm sorry to report a rather anti-climactic ending to this ordeal.
I got another set of speaker foams and did another refoam on the rear speaker that was still experiencing some buzzing and the job appears to have been successful

Not anticlimactic at all. We all knew it was one last go at the refoam before opting for aftermarket. It sounds good and looks like one hell of an undertaking judging by all the pieces strewn about. Did you shim after all?