Sound stage.

[TaylorFade 10+ year member]

Time aligning my tweeter doesnt seem to do anything. Even at extremes. My entire stage center is dependent on my mids T/A. Any idea why that is?

Tweeter frequencies are dominated by INTENSITY. Not time. If your stage is muddled, it could be because of this. You need to attenuate the near side tweeter. Mute the mids and play something with a strong center (like a vocalist) and walk the sound the center with attenuation (meaning turn that side down).

Also... center is center. You don't sit in the center of the car, so if your stage is in front of you... it's not a center.

And anyone who "doesn't like" time alignment has never heard one done correctly.

Also... TA on the sub is most certainly important insomuch as you need to mate them to the midbass.

 

[LosIsATool 5,000+ posts]

Tweeter frequencies are dominated by INTENSITY. Not time. If your stage is muddled, it could be because of this. You need to attenuate the near side tweeter. Mute the mids and play something with a strong center (like a vocalist) and walk the sound the center with attenuation (meaning turn that side down).
Also... center is center. You don't sit in the center of the car, so if your stage is in front of you... it's not a center.

And anyone who "doesn't like" time alignment has never heard one done correctly.

Also... TA on the sub is most certainly important insomuch as you need to mate them to the midbass.

Andy referring to the MS-8s lack of sub TA. Keep in mind how many awards this processor has.

If you set time alignment manually with another processor, you measure from the speakers to the listening position. The sub is farthest away--let's say it's 5 feet away. Then, measure from the next one--probably the passenger mid in the bottom of the door, which is probably 4 feet away. The difference in the distance is 1 foot. So, you delay everything but the sub by one foot.

Now, let's say that your crossover between your sub and your front speakers is 60Hz. A 60Hz wavelength is approximately 20 feet long. One wavelength is also 360 degrees. 1/20 of 360 is 18. The phase shift at the crossover frequency (which is all that matters) is 18 degrees. That doesn't contribute any cancellation nor does it affect the placement of bass sounds or the illusion of bass up front.

Getting bass up front is simply about making sure that polarity of the sub is correct and the right EQ. You can simply swap the speaker wires and recalibrate with the microphone to determine which of these you prefer.

 

[fly_marlin]

Andy referring to the MS-8s lack of sub TA. Keep in mind how many awards this processor has.



If you set time alignment manually with another processor, you measure from the speakers to the listening position. The sub is farthest away--let's say it's 5 feet away. Then, measure from the next one--probably the passenger mid in the bottom of the door, which is probably 4 feet away. The difference in the distance is 1 foot. So, you delay everything but the sub by one foot.

Now, let's say that your crossover between your sub and your front speakers is 60Hz. A 60Hz wavelength is approximately 20 feet long. One wavelength is also 360 degrees. 1/20 of 360 is 18. The phase shift at the crossover frequency (which is all that matters) is 18 degrees. That doesn't contribute any cancellation nor does it affect the placement of bass sounds or the illusion of bass up front.

Getting bass up front is simply about making sure that polarity of the sub is correct and the right EQ. You can simply swap the speaker wires and recalibrate with the microphone to determine which of these you prefer.

It sound right, in theory, however, in practice it's different. The difference is night and day, I've had numerous people listen to it this way. You may or may not have this as I imagine a lot of this is enclosure and car dependent, but I know it's not 100% negligible 100% of the time.

 

[LosIsATool 5,000+ posts]

It sound right, in theory, however, in practice it's different. The difference is night and day, I've had numerous people listen to it this way. You may or may not have this as I imagine a lot of this is enclosure and car dependent, but I know it's not 100% negligible 100% of the time.

I'm just going off the MS-8. What it does is a mystery but it's been proven to do something right.

The sub beats up my dash but still fills the cabin.

 

[fly_marlin]

This is pretty apparent with songs that have a good amount of drums. I listen to a lot of Metallica and it's evident in music like that. If I listen to decaf or most other rap, can't tell the difference.

 

[LosIsATool 5,000+ posts]

This is pretty apparent with songs that have a good amount of drums. I listen to a lot of Metallica and it's evident in music like that. If I listen to decaf or most other rap, can't tell the difference.

I haven't listened to anything like that since this build was done.

I picked up a bunch of greatest hits CDs and been wearing them out

 

[Beerdrnkr 5,000+ posts]

Time aligning my tweeter doesnt seem to do anything. Even at extremes. My entire stage center is dependent on my mids T/A. Any idea why that is?

If your tweeters are crossed over really high than that might be why. Is everything ran active or passive?

Who knows what the MS-8 does but I promise you, delaying your sub does make a difference. By the way reversing the phase is a form of delaying/TA'ing the sub. Yes, the sub is the furthest away and if you add delay to it, you'll still have to add a delay to the other speakers as well, but now you'll see that you're adding even more of a delay on the mids/tweets to match the delay on the sub. You're basically still delaying it equally (if you TA correctly) to the mids and tweets by putting more of a delay on them. It's kind of hard to explain, hope you understand.

 

[xtremekustomz 10+ year member]

This tutorial was written by someone YEARS ago. I didn't read all the posts. Just skimmed through. This should help though instead of using time alignment. That is if you prefer. Try it out and see!

"There are several different methods used to tune eqs. This is the one I use. An RTA is not needed if the steps are done correctly. This method uses crossovers and gain settings as the most important factor in tuning. I think the eq should be last in line when tuning. Remember after each step to write down your settings. If the sound gets worse, then you can go back to the previous step’s settings and start over.

 

 

1. Set all bands flat, as well as the head unit bass and treble.

 

2. Turn off the subs. Using music with a good bass line, run the highpass crossover up and down until the midbasses can play as low as possible without any distortion or excessive door panel vibrations.

 

3. Unhook the mids and tweeters, allowing only the midbasses to play. Listen to mono pink noise or a well-recorded song with a centered vocalist. Test CDs such as the IASCA test CD or Autosound 2000 Test CD 102 or 103 will work great. Listen to where the centered sounds are coming from. Then reverse the polarity of one midbass (Reverse the speaker wires coming from the passive crossover and going to the speaker, just flip the positive and negative wires. I usually flip the driver’s side speaker.) and re-listen to the test CD. If the sounds are more centered then keep it as is. If the centered sounds are more diffuse and un-locatable, then flip the polarity back to where it was originally.

 

4. Then unhook the midbasses and play the mids only and follow the same polarity and listening tests as before. Mark your best settings.

 

5. Do the same procedure for the tweeters.

 

6. When you have tested for the proper polarity from all three ranges of speakers, hook all of them back up with respect to each set of speaker’s best polarity. You can have any combination of polarity, such as all the midbass and tweeters straight and one midrange reversed.

 

7. Now you should have the correct “acoustic” polarity set within each set of speakers. Next is to set the acoustic polarity between the sets of speakers.

 

8. Listen to some very familiar music with a good range of sounds. Then flip both midbass’ polarity and listen again. Before you only flipped one midbass, now you are doing both at the same time. For example if the left midbass was reversed and the right was not before, now the left will be not reversed and the right will be. Listen to the music again. If the midbass is more powerful and full then leave the wiring as is. If the midbass sounds weaker and wrong then restore the wiring as before.

 

9. Perform the same listening tests while flipping the mids and tweeters, and use the wiring configuration that sounds the best.

 

10. If you have went though all these steps adjusting the polarity of the speakers then the system should sound really good without any eq adjustments. You might want to play with the gain adjustments on the crossover and/or amp to better blend all the speakers together.

 

11. Now onto the eq! The first eq step is to adjust the tonality. While listening to familiar music, adjust each individual band up and down slowly. When the music sounds better then move to the next band. Adjust the left and right bands equally. (We’ll get to the separate left and right adjustments soon.) It really does not matter if the bands are boosted or cut, just that it makes the sound better. Not every band needs to be adjusted. In fact if you did steps 1 thru 10 correctly you should not have to adjust over half the bands. Having a 1/3 octave eq does not mean you have to adjust every band. It means you have the ability to adjust each band if needed. Watch out for big jumps from band to band, like one band set to +4 and the next band set to –6.

 

12. Continue through all the bands, take a break, and do the same procedure over again. But this time the adjustments will be smaller as you get the tonality dialed in. This step might take several days, weeks, or longer.

 

13. In tuning you will find some eq bands will raise, lower, move the sound closer, or farther away if adjusted in certain manners. For example, lowering 5 KHz will generally move the soundstage farther away and raising 2 KHz will make the soundstage rise. Each vehicle and system will have different settings that will be the best. The best way to achieve awesome sound is to constantly adjust.

 

14. When you are satisfied with the tonality of the system, it is time to start adjusting the left and right channels separately. These adjustments should not affect the tonality, but improve on the imaging and soundstaging. Using the Autosound 2000 Test CD 102 or 103 “My Disk” listen to the individual frequency pink noise tracks. (Test CD103 has the tracks arranged in an easier configuration.) Each frequency band should sound like it is coming from the center of the soundstage. If one band is off to one side, then use each band’s left and right eq controls as a balance control. This is very similar to the head unit’s balance control, only now you are balancing each frequency band by itself. For example if 200 Hz seems to be shifted to the left of center, lower the left 200 Hz band and raise the right 200 Hz band one dB at a time until the band is centered. If a frequency is shifted to the right, lower the band’s right channel and raise the left channel in small amounts.

 

15. When you have when through all the bands take a break. Then later go back through each band one by one and make any further needed adjustments until all the frequencies are lined up in the center of the soundstage."

 

 

 

 

 

 

[fly_marlin]

This tutorial was written by someone YEARS ago. I didn't read all the posts. Just skimmed through. This should help though instead of using time alignment. That is if you prefer. Try it out and see!
"There are several different methods used to tune eqs. This is the one I use. An RTA is not needed if the steps are done correctly. This method uses crossovers and gain settings as the most important factor in tuning. I think the eq should be last in line when tuning. Remember after each step to write down your settings. If the sound gets worse, then you can go back to the previous step’s settings and start over.

 

 

1. Set all bands flat, as well as the head unit bass and treble.

 

2. Turn off the subs. Using music with a good bass line, run the highpass crossover up and down until the midbasses can play as low as possible without any distortion or excessive door panel vibrations.

 

3. Unhook the mids and tweeters, allowing only the midbasses to play. Listen to mono pink noise or a well-recorded song with a centered vocalist. Test CDs such as the IASCA test CD or Autosound 2000 Test CD 102 or 103 will work great. Listen to where the centered sounds are coming from. Then reverse the polarity of one midbass (Reverse the speaker wires coming from the passive crossover and going to the speaker, just flip the positive and negative wires. I usually flip the driver’s side speaker.) and re-listen to the test CD. If the sounds are more centered then keep it as is. If the centered sounds are more diffuse and un-locatable, then flip the polarity back to where it was originally.

 

4. Then unhook the midbasses and play the mids only and follow the same polarity and listening tests as before. Mark your best settings.

 

5. Do the same procedure for the tweeters.

 

6. When you have tested for the proper polarity from all three ranges of speakers, hook all of them back up with respect to each set of speaker’s best polarity. You can have any combination of polarity, such as all the midbass and tweeters straight and one midrange reversed.

 

7. Now you should have the correct “acoustic” polarity set within each set of speakers. Next is to set the acoustic polarity between the sets of speakers.

 

8. Listen to some very familiar music with a good range of sounds. Then flip both midbass’ polarity and listen again. Before you only flipped one midbass, now you are doing both at the same time. For example if the left midbass was reversed and the right was not before, now the left will be not reversed and the right will be. Listen to the music again. If the midbass is more powerful and full then leave the wiring as is. If the midbass sounds weaker and wrong then restore the wiring as before.

 

9. Perform the same listening tests while flipping the mids and tweeters, and use the wiring configuration that sounds the best.

 

10. If you have went though all these steps adjusting the polarity of the speakers then the system should sound really good without any eq adjustments. You might want to play with the gain adjustments on the crossover and/or amp to better blend all the speakers together.

 

11. Now onto the eq! The first eq step is to adjust the tonality. While listening to familiar music, adjust each individual band up and down slowly. When the music sounds better then move to the next band. Adjust the left and right bands equally. (We’ll get to the separate left and right adjustments soon.) It really does not matter if the bands are boosted or cut, just that it makes the sound better. Not every band needs to be adjusted. In fact if you did steps 1 thru 10 correctly you should not have to adjust over half the bands. Having a 1/3 octave eq does not mean you have to adjust every band. It means you have the ability to adjust each band if needed. Watch out for big jumps from band to band, like one band set to +4 and the next band set to –6.

 

12. Continue through all the bands, take a break, and do the same procedure over again. But this time the adjustments will be smaller as you get the tonality dialed in. This step might take several days, weeks, or longer.

 

13. In tuning you will find some eq bands will raise, lower, move the sound closer, or farther away if adjusted in certain manners. For example, lowering 5 KHz will generally move the soundstage farther away and raising 2 KHz will make the soundstage rise. Each vehicle and system will have different settings that will be the best. The best way to achieve awesome sound is to constantly adjust.

 

14. When you are satisfied with the tonality of the system, it is time to start adjusting the left and right channels separately. These adjustments should not affect the tonality, but improve on the imaging and soundstaging. Using the Autosound 2000 Test CD 102 or 103 “My Disk” listen to the individual frequency pink noise tracks. (Test CD103 has the tracks arranged in an easier configuration.) Each frequency band should sound like it is coming from the center of the soundstage. If one band is off to one side, then use each band’s left and right eq controls as a balance control. This is very similar to the head unit’s balance control, only now you are balancing each frequency band by itself. For example if 200 Hz seems to be shifted to the left of center, lower the left 200 Hz band and raise the right 200 Hz band one dB at a time until the band is centered. If a frequency is shifted to the right, lower the band’s right channel and raise the left channel in small amounts.

 

15. When you have when through all the bands take a break. Then later go back through each band one by one and make any further needed adjustments until all the frequencies are lined up in the center of the soundstage."

 

 

 

 

 

Is there an article that expands on step 13? That's what I'm looking for.

 

[LosIsATool 5,000+ posts]

Is there an article that expands on step 13? That's what I'm looking for.

If you don't get rid of those passives you will never get what you are looking for. Trust me I tried.

 

[trumpet 5,000+ posts]

There was a question in the OP about stage width. The only sure way to maximize stage width is to have your speakers far to the sides of the cabin. No amount of time alignment or EQ or phase tricks is going to reliably get you a wide stage across the full bandwidth that the speakers can play. This is one reason it may be better to place tweeters at the top of the doors or in the sail panels instead of in the A-pillars.

Every speaker location has pros and cons, and what works well for your buddy(hypothetically speaker) might **** in your car.

 

[TreyE 10+ year member]

I tried measuring and calculator methods and nothing compared to this method.

Precision time alignment using only noise tracks and your ears - Car Audio | DiyMobileAudio.com | Car Stereo Forum

It set my time alignment and also clears out any phase issues in one. Its amazing if you follow it correctly and are patient. Correlated Pink Noise (mono) should be used.

Write down current numbers and just try this method, read all 12 pages it will answer a lot of questions you may have. It's easier to hear the "noise" on tweets/mids tuning so may want to try that first to understand. Then go back through step 1 on.

I have my tweets in sails and mids in doors. Stage is centeralized on dash but does favor passenger side a little bit, it made such a drastic difference in not only my mids and highs but sub too. Found a new love in listening to live performances.

 

[The Camry]

How i T/A is measure the distance each speaker is from me. Input that. Then i move the T/A on the mids up or down a few notches till i get the center stage.

Tweets are usually fine. if you have an issue where your hearing your tweets being ever so off from eachother(i had this). Then you can adjust till it blends.

Subs were a lil tricky. I ended up having to max them out on the T/A and even then i wasnt able to get them to be spot on with drum rolls and the like. So i made every speaker a little farther away.

you can actually hear the phase being corrected as you move the t/a left and right.

 

[TreyE 10+ year member]

How i T/A is measure the distance each speaker is from me. Input that. Then i move the T/A on the mids up or down a few notches till i get the center stage.
Tweets are usually fine. if you have an issue where your hearing your tweets being ever so off from eachother(i had this). Then you can adjust till it blends.

Subs were a lil tricky. I ended up having to max them out on the T/A and even then i wasnt able to get them to be spot on with drum rolls and the like. So i made every speaker a little farther away.

you can actually hear the phase being corrected as you move the t/a left and right.

Yea exactly, read that thread I posted and try it dude. Huge difference. Whatever speaker is furthest away (usually sub) should be maxed out on the TA (if you have a Pioneer whatever the max cm is is zero delay) then everything else delayed from that.

1. Passenger midbass + sub, all other channels disconnected.

2. Driver midbass + sub, all other channels disconnected.

3. Both midbass, all other channels disconnected.

4. Passenger midbass + tweets, all other channels disconnected.

5. Driver midbass + tweet, all other disconnected.

6. Both side midbass + tweet, all other disconnected.

7. Everything together, tweak if necessary.

Measuring didn't do **** compared to this method in my findings personally.